Cathy Meehan: Too often we hear these words: anxiety, depression, trauma, attachment disorder. Okay, people, what is going on in our world? Every day we are hearing more and more people struggling with emotional health. So on today’s episode, we are going to introduce Ashley Pena, LPC-C. She has her master’s degree in clinical mental health counseling and works with Ellie Mental Health, which has clinics throughout the United States. Ashley happens to work here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, but I wanted to invite her on the podcast so she could share her experience, offer some guidance, and let everyone know that if you, your child, or someone you know is struggling with emotional health, therapy can be the answer.
Cathy Meehan: Hey everyone, it’s Cathy with the Meehan Mission podcast, and today I am delighted to share the screen with Ashley Pena, LPC-C. She is a counselor with Ellie Mental Health, and I was just so excited. She came by the office the other day, and there is so much information out there on children nowadays and the anxiety and just all of the problems that, you know, in my generation, I don’t think we had as many mental issues, if you want to call it that, or just anxiety. And our poor children nowadays, they need people like Ashley. So what I wanted to do was introduce Ashley to our listeners so she can help kind of give us the other side of the picture and, you know, give us some insight. If we’re having children that are experiencing some issues, or if we have friends with children, we need to share this podcast. I’m just inviting Ashley to please spill your brain out for us. And I probably want to start with what got you interested in working with children in the first place when it came to the mental health field?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah, it’s not your typical story, honestly. I happened to be at my husband’s barbecue for his company, and I had the opportunity to notice a particular parent interacting with his child who had a diagnosis, or has a diagnosis, of autism. And just the way that he interacted was so caring and empathetic. And I’ve seen other families not be able to be so caring or empathetic and be more stressed with it. So it really helped me to see that I really would like to support those that maybe need some more help and more resources so that they are able to interact in the same fashion, regardless of their situations. It doesn’t just have to be with autism. And so I ultimately found myself drawn to children specifically to allow them different avenues to communicate what’s going on and describe how they’re feeling. And working with families allows me to support the entire system—the parents, their grandparents, even siblings, anyone that comes in contact with the kids. Because everyone plays a huge role in the environment, emotionally and physically. Over time, I’ve learned that when I get to support the child and the family, the healing becomes more sustainable. That blend allows me to work with prevention, intervention, and connection, which continuously keeps me passionate about the work.
Cathy Meehan: That’s so great. Well, when you are dealing with the children and you talk about bringing the families in and everything, I mean, we hear all these things about the breakdown of the nuclear family. And I think that probably adds to miscommunication between parents. And so many of these little things that we don’t think about really affect the children more than we anticipate. And I say that in like, you know, children always want—I always thought they want stability. They want to know what’s happening. So children in their younger years, what do you find as far as age-related anxiety problems? And are they getting younger and younger? And what do you attribute to that?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: You know, it’s an interesting question because if you look at 20 years ago, there’s a lot of technology that we have today that we didn’t have before. Some can argue that that would contribute to that anxiety, but I also think just our environment in general has shifted so much that the generations we have grown up in have changed in the way that they want to approach parenting and involvement with their families as well. And I feel like there’s a lot of connection that has been lost.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I’ve seen it over the years too. The family dynamics have changed, the introduction of social media, which, you know—so is that as big of a problem as I hear? Because my children are now in their twenties and thirties, and I know it kind of had an impact on them younger. But what is the influence of social media on kids nowadays?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: It’s interesting because if we’re looking at currently today, I’ve noticed a lot of the kiddos that I have worked with are saying they don’t even want to connect to social media because it’s just so much doom and gloom and so much negativity that they’re finding that they don’t even want to connect to social media the way kids five or ten years ago did. It really just depends on how much interaction these kids have with social media, access to the news outlets, and what type of information they’re being fed and inundated with, and how their parents approach it as well and communicate it to them.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Well, I mean, I know now I have grandkids, and they are getting cell phones and all that. And just for my personal information, it’s scary, right? The information that these kids can come across when it comes to social media, and also with the algorithms that are going on—you click on one bad site, and then that’s all you’re going to get are more bad sites. And I would think that would just contribute to the mental illness, and I don’t know if you call it that, sorry, whatever is correct to say. But our poor children nowadays—what can parents do to make sure that their children who are online are protected?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: There are so many protective factors in social media and in your electronic devices. You know, I can’t really speak to what is best, but I definitely believe having a relationship and a connection with your child, having that open line of communication where you’re able to be curious about what they’re being fed throughout the day—whether it be in school, in person, or online—and being curious about it, not approaching it in a way of criticism. Because a lot of the information that’s coming about right now, it’s not stuff that we as parents have ever experienced. And so we can have our own reaction to it that we can attribute to our past. So just being involved and being present for your kids, and not constantly correcting them and telling them, “You shouldn’t be doing this.” Instead, let’s help them see different sides of why it’s good or why it’s not good.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. And I was also kind of thinking of, as far as anxiety, it seems to be the big buzzword with our children. Do you think we over-program our children nowadays, and that might cause some of the anxiety-type issues that they’re having?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: I think we are self-diagnosing too much, and we are taking anxiety as a negative thing. Anxiety, back before modern civilization, was there to help protect us, and anxiety is a protective factor that our own mind and body has. So, you know, back in the hunter days, when we were living off the land, we had to be aware of our surroundings, our sensations, and understand what this crack of a stick or these crinkling leaves meant. Was it harmful, or was it just someone that we know? And over time, because of the way that civilization has changed and progressed, that anxiety still lives in us because it’s meant to protect us. And being able to understand what anxiety is trying to communicate to us will help us work through that anxiety.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Well, it seems like anxiety really should just be a temporary state, but maybe people are using it as a blanketed term because now people are just using—and I don’t know if that’s really the exact term—it’s depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, fear. All of these things are, you know, when I was growing up, we saw that on TV, but it wasn’t like our best friends and everybody in the class had that. It just seems that it’s—is it something that’s overdiagnosed, or is it underdiagnosed in our child population?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: In some cases it could be overdiagnosed, but that anxiety, again, what is it communicating to us? And that’s one of the things with therapy. Being able to communicate with these kids is really key to understanding, okay, anxiety is a symptom, that behavioral response to what’s going on in our environment and in our minds. So why are we having anxiety? It can feel like it is over-communicated because social media, as you just stated a little bit ago, you click on one video talking about anxiety, and all of a sudden you’re going to see anxiety everywhere.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah, yeah, everywhere. Yeah. Well, I’m talking about with kids specifically, as far as therapy. I know people think they go to a counselor and they talk out therapy and work out their resolutions and everything. But what about younger kids? I’ve heard of things like art therapy and just kind of like play therapy. Can you kind of give us a little rundown of how those things differ and how you would use those for the different ages?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah, those are actually the forms of therapy that I feel like are the strongest in working with kids. Kids are able to express their emotions, like I said, through behavior. They don’t come readily equipped to understand the appropriate behavior with anger or their thoughts. And so play therapy and even art therapy can give them a developmentally appropriate form of language for their inner world. They communicate through symbols and stories and movement and creativity to help them work through that complex emotion. So with play therapy, a child might interact with a different doll or figurine to reenact that difficult situation that either they were in contact with, that they’re struggling with, or that they’ve seen. And art therapy—I mean, drawing a stormy sky doesn’t always mean that there’s something scary happening, but could it be for that child? And so we’re able to work through it in those approaches to bypass the pressure of, “Okay, now explain to me what’s going on,” or “Come up with words that you don’t even know how to equate to what you’re feeling.” It allows them to feel safe and vulnerable without judgment.
Cathy Meehan: Oh yeah, that’s good. And I can see where age appropriateness would come in for that. So kind of in your practice, is there maybe, of all the challenges that are facing kids, do they come in different waves as far as what’s happening with our children nowadays? Are you seeing one challenge more than other challenges?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: I think that a lot of the commonalities that I’ve run into center around connection and focus, honestly.
Cathy Meehan: Okay, and you mean like, I’ve heard of attachment disorders. Is that kind of where you’re going?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah, so there are different forms of attachment and connection. So you can have secure attachment, anxious-avoidant, anxious attachment, or completely detached. And there are different levels with those that can really impact the way that kiddos interact with our world, and even us as adults.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Could you give me an example of one of those that you see which is maybe more common, and how there is a resolution, or how that gets fixed, if “fixed” is actually the word?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah. So with the attachment types, I guess you could say I see more anxious attachment and a lot of avoidant attachment as well. With anxious attachment, you’re afraid of being alone, and when something’s happening, you cannot be alone and you’ve got to have someone with you, right? Avoidant means, “I’m not going to commit to this relationship because they’re never going to stick around,” or “they don’t always stick around.” You have that person that’s constantly leaving in their life, and it’s shown up in that for them, and then they continue and grow with that. And so I’m able to help the kids through that, but also the parents learn to tune in to the meaning behind that. Like if a child’s anger—they could be expressing anger, but it’s really fear or overwhelm—and teaching families to help co-regulate with reflective listening. That can be really hard as a parent. And building what’s pretty popularly known as “I love you rituals”—and that’s not necessarily always the “I love you” statement—but it creates connection. So with a parent-to-child situation, if a child is spending just a few minutes a day with the parent undivided—no phone, no TV—it’s one-on-one attention that they’re getting. The child, though, leads the activity they are doing, and the parent listens with warmth and empathy. It builds the child’s sense of safety, and they feel seen and heard and even emotionally supported. Again, it’s that interacting without judgment. And you can even do this with siblings where they’re playing a game together or create a special handshake. Something that small allows that connection.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Oh, I think that sounds so important. I mean, especially, you know, I know when it comes to—I’m even thinking in work scenarios—you can apply this to so many different areas of your life. And I even hear about people who are on the dating scene now and they’re having people that are what they call avoidant and all those things, and it’s all kind of making sense. And I think a lot of the issues stem as children and some of our situations that we grow up in. But is there hope for these kids? I mean, how do we recognize that there is something going on where our child might need some help? How do we recognize that?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Well, first, noticing if there’s been a change in behavior and being able to sit down with your child and assess whether or not it’s something that is internal or external. And that can be really hard for kiddos too. So just approaching it in a safe, non-judgmental way, with curiosity—identifying, you know, “I’ve noticed something’s different.” And then asking an open-ended question instead of a yes or no, because yes-or-no questions with kids don’t go very well. They just go yes or no, and there’s no context to it. But if you say, “What has it been like for you at school? How are you doing with your friends?” If you’re noticing that they’re alone a lot more or that they’re not as talkative as they once were, are they not feeling connected? And again, just echoing connection over correction, because kids have problems when they feel misunderstood, and they won’t open up if they don’t feel safe in the environment to do so. And then just getting support, you know. I’m so thankful that we’re in a day and age now where therapy is not such a negative viewpoint anymore. There are so many people getting therapy out there that they’re noticing that just having that extra support—that third-party individual who doesn’t live with you every single day—you don’t feel judged by them because you only see them once a week or once a month, depending on how frequently you go. Recognizing that therapy doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with you. It just allows that space for kids, families, parents, and individuals to gain tools, gain resources, process through their strengths, and strengthen communication.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. No, yeah, that’s very necessary. And it’s so good that you pointed out that therapy is not negative, like it used to be. You know, people were like, “You’re going to therapy?” But now it’s such a resourceful tool. And whether you need it for a short-term situation or some people need it for a long-term situation just to come to resolutions, it really is an asset that if someone is having difficulties with anything, they should seek out some therapy. I was just thinking in my head how many people I know that go to therapy, and it’s like it’s just part of their weekly or monthly schedule to head over and go to therapy. And that’s of all ages too. That’s of all ages. So what I just kind of want to have a picture of is, what is the youngest age when someone’s going to go see a therapist?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: I mean, it depends on the level of trauma and the environment. Because I have known two-year-olds to even be referred to therapy because of the high level of trauma that they experienced. I know I see kiddos starting around age four, and the last few years I have had the opportunity to be in a school district where I could office in a school and be able to see the kids during their school day, which was really cool—to have that support and create that safe space for them. And I saw pre-K’ers all the way up to eighth graders.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Well, that’s good that they’ve got that resource if somebody needs it there. And I would think that probably a lot of your referrals actually come from maybe a physician, or if it’s an extreme case where they need therapy, that somebody often would recommend you go see a therapist.
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: So yeah, we do get a lot here at Ellie in the private-practice world from our physicians. Because you’re doing your check-ins with your kids, you’re taking them to the doctor’s appointment, and they’re able to ask those questions. And they help you identify if there are any behavior changes that aren’t in line with their age. If it’s not developmental, then they’ll refer you to therapy. I’ve also gotten them from school counselors where they’re noticing, or the teachers are noticing and hearing something that just seems a little concerning. And they talk to the parent, and then the parent says, “Yeah, I think that would be a good idea.” And then either the parent reaches out or the school reaches out at that time as well.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Are there any telltale signs for parents to be looking for when it comes to the emotional well-being? I know we kind of briefly hit on it, but I guess it’s just really making sure that parents are in communication with their kids. And it’s so hard with busy schedules nowadays, right?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Accepting your support system and what they’re saying. If your kid doesn’t feel safe or comfortable enough to even come to you as the parent, and you’re not noticing anything at home, check in at school, check in with grandparents, aunts and uncles, and say, “Hey, have you noticed anything different? Have you noticed a change in their appetite, their sleep schedule, their behavior? Are they more aggressive now? Is that age-appropriate, or is there something going on internally? Has there been a recent life transition? Has a parent lost a job? Have they moved? A family loss?” A pet could also cause a kiddo to exhibit depressive symptoms and those kinds of things as well. So it’s really hard to say, “Here’s a surefire reason.” If you’re ever questioning it, if you just have this inkling that something’s not right, you can talk to your primary care provider or you can just reach out and we can do an intake and work through some of the goals. A lot of it’s behavior-based with kids. You know, we don’t want them doing this or acting this way, so how can you help? Because in the therapy world for kids, behavior is communication. We’re going to get down to the bottom of it in our sessions. And then also, when you work with kids, you work with the families, right? So not all the sessions are just with the kids. You have family sessions or just sessions with the parents so that you can help them understand parenting styles. Is this parenting style really not working with those kiddos?
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Very interesting that you mentioned parenting styles because sometimes, I mean, that’s conflict alone for a child. If mom does things one way and dad does something the other way and there’s no consistency, I would think that would probably cause a lot of issues for that poor child who’s kind of stuck in the middle. And you probably get a lot of that with divorced or separated parents too, I would imagine, which would sadly cause a lot of emotional distress for the children involved.
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah. And unfortunately, when divorce happens, the parents think that they’re doing best by trying to adhere to this visitation schedule or that visitation schedule, and they forget to ask the child or see how it’s affecting the child. Because as you stated at the very beginning, honestly, kids thrive off of consistency. And when that consistency is not there, it can really make it more challenging for them to navigate their world.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So then, do you suggest counseling for parents? I mean, if you know you’re going to have problems with your child, do you just need to come in and start them now? I would think the sooner the better. Any type of counseling—as soon as you suspect there is an issue or there’s going to be an issue—let’s get started, really?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah. And kids building that rapport and that trust takes a little bit longer than it does with an adult because they don’t know how to read body language. And depending on what their life situation has been, you’re just another person to them. So that will end up affecting the timeline. But depending on the situation, if the parent still is lost and they still don’t know what to do with their kid because something’s not changing, then I would suggest, well, do you have a therapist yourself to work through these things? And would you want us to work together on trying to help with the parenting side of things as well? Because as they say in airplanes, in the event of an emergency, put the mask on yourself before you put it on your child. And I have noticed an uptick in seeing kiddos where the parents will put their kid in therapy, but they won’t go to therapy themselves. They don’t know that there’s something they’re doing that they’re still working through as well. Because as you also stated, a lot of our adult problems stem from our childhood, and they may be triggered in, “This is how I behaved as a kid, and this is what was done unto me when I behaved that way.” But I’m also conflicted because I don’t feel like I want to do that to my kid. And so when you get into that struggle too, it’s really hard. And just having that support system, therapy is really just a huge support system to help give you somebody else to talk to that is neutral.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah. Well, it’s just—I just think, you know, my husband and I raised five kids, and it was not easy raising five kids. And then you throw social media in there, and there’s so much influence, and the schools are just—I mean, it’s just so complicated that I really hope that people recognize that therapy is an answer. It’s a positive answer. And it’s not just for kids, and it’s not just for adults. And you’re right, it’s for the entire family. And that just makes so much sense. But it’s one of those things that sometimes, you know, you don’t know what you don’t know. And again, that’s kind of why I wanted to bring you on—to let people know that there are options when there are issues with somebody’s emotional health. Because we do physical health all the time, and a big part of your physical health is your emotional health. And I see both sides of that. Some people are like, “All they’re talking about is emotional,” and they’re not doing anything to balance it out with physical health. “If they would just exercise, eat better, and do all these things…” And then you’ve got the person that’s doing all of the physical things, but they’re still depressed or angry or whatever. And really, that all ties in together.
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: It does. And there’s even a therapy modality called somatic therapy. And with that in mental health, we’ve noticed that a lot of our mental health feeds our somatic symptoms. So in our bodies, there’s a book out there called The Body Keeps Score. It talks very beautifully about how trauma—and trauma is so loosely used—but trauma is just a situation where you’ve endured a situation and you weren’t able to process it. Not every situation is the same for every individual, and you process it differently. But with The Body Keeps Score, they talk about how that sticks in your body. And if you are able to work through somatic therapy with a therapist, there are even somatic exercises out there that can help you release that tension in your back or any other physical symptom. It is all tied together.
Cathy Meehan: Yeah, yeah, it really is. And as the science continues, we’re discovering more things every day, and it is essential that physical and emotional health really do go hand in hand. And that’s what I hope that everybody gets out of this. So what is your advice for parents that might have concern for their children’s emotional health? My guess is they go find a therapist, right?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: First, be curious. Yeah, be curious with your kid. Connect with them. And then, yeah, talk to your primary care provider and find a therapist that you feel comfortable with your child seeing.
Cathy Meehan: I think that’s great. So now, Ashley, I know that you are actually located here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so you have an office in Tulsa and an office in Bixby. And also Ellie Mental Health has clinics all across the United States. So if somebody needs to get in touch with you, how do they get in touch with you?
Ashley Pena, LPC-C: Yeah, you can go to elliementalhealth.com, and you can select the location that you’re looking for therapy, select the reasons, and you can even schedule online by yourself. If you’d rather talk to someone, you can—the phone number is on the website. The one here for Oklahoma is 918-800-2058. But yeah, go to elliementalhealth.com and you can select your therapist. You’ll see a bio for each therapist that’s there, and you can see their first available appointment. And we take the majority of major insurances and self-pay options as well.
Cathy Meehan: That is great. Ashley, I appreciate you taking your time out of your day to help educate our listeners, and I just pray that everything goes well in 2026. And thank you for joining me today.
